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If you remove panfish from an ecosystem, you are not going to have more larger fish. You are going to have no fish! because panfish are apart of the base in an ecosystem that supports larger predatory fish to exist!
Canmoore,
Point well taken but I dont think Doug was saying remove the sunfish all together but rather keep the number under control in an effort to keep that balance as he has stated that the sunfish are out of control.
Thanks orrsey, that is the point EXACTLY. I think things are out of balance, based on personal observations and anecdotal evidence from a lot of folks including the lad from Battersea, whom I mentioned earlier. He is a bait dealer and on the water all the time.
I think we have some guides on the board, it would be very interesting to hear their perspective..........
Advocating or supporting people keeping hundreds or thousands of fish will end up in time.....in my opinion....being a big mistake.....
RJ[/quote]Who keeps "thousands" of sunfish ?? The time to filet them would take days. If I take a weeks vacation to a lodge I would spend most of the time cleaning sunnies---I don't think that would be worth coming up north to do that. Therefore it appears that the problem is with your "local" fisherman & not with your lodge customers. Maybe the "blame" belongs there.
I am not a lodge operator, but I do know that the tourist business is extremely important for our local economy. Historically, a lot of the tourists to this area are from the USA, and I have made some great friends with folks I have met from PA and other states when they are up for their visits. (In fact, we just had two house guests, one from PA and one from WY, that I met a number of years ago at a local lake! )
I say WELCOME to lodge customers, wherever they come from, to enjoy our fishing, for whatever species floats their boat! And if they want to spend their time in a filleting shack, by golly more power to them! And I agree that nobody should be pointing their fingers at anybody in this discussion. If there is a "problem" on a specific body of water, then that should be dealt with on a case by case basis, regardless of who is at the end of the fishing rod.
I normally don't get involved in discussions like this but I do believe panfish should be protected on many of the lakes I fish, but in other lakes panfish are overpopulated and have a stunted growth. My cottage is a lake near perth and has small populations of very large panfish. It also recieves lots of fishing pressure for panfish and the amount of fish kept often upsets me. If someone does this every weekend on a small lake there has to be some kind of effect. If 20 people go to one spot and all keep their 50 fish limit there's 1000 fish gone. It would definitely be interesting to see a survey with the amount of crappie in lakes around here. I'm not sure if there are more than I would think or less . I know I fished one spot this May and eventually ended up catching many fish that were hooked before.
What can you do though, it's hard to argue with a fisheries biologist but it still makes me sick seeing people go beside my cottage filling up a garbage bin of large sunfish and crappie while they are spawning.
Mike Lennox wrote:I normally don't get involved in discussions like this but I do believe panfish should be protected on many of the lakes I fish, but in other lakes panfish are overpopulated and have a stunted growth. My cottage is a lake near perth and has small populations of very large panfish. It also recieves lots of fishing pressure for panfish and the amount of fish kept often upsets me. If someone does this every weekend on a small lake there has to be some kind of effect. If 20 people go to one spot and all keep their 50 fish limit there's 1000 fish gone.
Mike
I own a 38 acre pond in Pa.. Each year we try to remove several hundred Sunnies in April & early May . The result has been a huge increase in the BIG BASS population. The average bass caught is now 14" where before this process began it was 10"--Although this is only one example, I believe it shows that each body of water must be considered on its own & "general rules" usually don't work.
rfunfarm wrote: The time to filet them would take days. If I take a weeks vacation to a lodge I would spend most of the time cleaning sunnies---I don't think that would be worth coming up north to do that. Therefore it appears that the problem is with your "local" fisherman & not with your lodge customers. Maybe the "blame" belongs there.
The resorts that pushed for the limits to be removed were catering to non-local clientele.....don't get me wrong....this isn't an all out attack on American visitors....just the ones that arrive with mulitple coolers and freezer trucks.....I know it's hard to understand....but it is happening.....
American visitors with FREEZER TRUCKS?????? Staying at lodges??? I guess I just missed seeing them when I travel up there twice each summer. I must be going to the wrong lodges eh???
Doug wrote:Back to orrsey.........the observation I related pre-dates the zebra mussels by a number of years.
PS) If tourists are taking big loads of sunfish out of these lakes, I say GOOD FOR THEM. Keeps the pressure off the bass........ I mean, really, if the sunfish are there by the millions (which is the case), then even tens of thousands removed do not impact the sunfish population and DO impact in a positive way the bass population. This I think is the big picture that we need to keep our eyes on.
I notice back home that lakes which have a good, health population of predatory species such as pike and walleye tend to have very low catches of perch. The lakes closest to settled areas, where the pike and walleye see much more pressure and harvest are the ones where you actually catch keeper-sized perch. Almost seems that the larger gamefish ate the smaller ones, but if they were removed or reduced the perch would take over.
Kinda got me wondering....Do you suppose it could be over pressure on natural predators like pike, walleye and bass that have allow panfish populations to explode?
Nahhhh...couldn't be. That's blasphemous crazy farmer talk
You're right. We need to kill them all off. That'll fix it.
Kinda got me wondering....Do you suppose it could be over pressure on natural predators like pike, walleye and bass that have allow panfish populations to explode?
Nahhhh...couldn't be. That's blasphemous crazy farmer talk Laughing
You're right. We need to kill them all off. That'll fix it.
No maybe not kill them off but maybe look at bringing the balance back. If the panfish population is not regulated in the situation where there are way to many the larger predator fish will have a harder time coming back. A harder time coming back because the small pan fish love to eat fry and fish eggs.
Im not against putting a a limit on panfish, I'm actually for it but there is always two sides to every coin.
The Ontario government has lifted catch limits on sunfish and yellow perch for at least two years, a move applauded by local tourism operators who faced financial damage from the restrictions.
But an outspoken eastern Ontario MPP, while welcoming the reversal at Queen's Park on the two types of panfish, said it should have happened in days rather than weeks.
Officials at the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) announced in a prepared statement Wednesday that, effective immediately, "there are no catch and possession limits on sunfish and yellow perch in Fisheries Management Zone 18 in eastern Ontario."
Zone 18 extends from Trenton to the Quebec border and north to northern Lanark County.
The ministry will set up a "fisheries advisory council" for the zone to advise the MNR on sunfish and perch management rules to be put in place in 2010, the statement added.
It describes the advisory council as being made up of "volunteers who represent the wide variety of interests related to fishing within the zone and provide advice to the ministry."
The MNR had imposed a daily limit of 25 of the panfish with a conservation licence or 50 with a sportfishing licence.
That left local tourism operators fretting over heavy financial losses due to cancellations and lost bookings, in particular from American fishermen who felt the catch limits did not make a trip to this area worth their while.
Roxanne Stewart, co-owner of Nordlaw Lodge on Bob's Lake north of Westport, credited Natural Resources Minister Donna Cansfield with following through on her promise to find a temporary solution to the problem - even if it took nearly six weeks from the April 12 meeting the minister attended in Westport.
"I'm very pleased," said Stewart, who credited a groundswell of opposition from local groups for the suspension of the limits.
"It doesn't matter how round the wheel is, sometimes it just needs a little push to get it going."
The move comes too late for Stewart and other operators to get back the Memorial Day weekend crowd south of the border, but at least they can start calling back people who have cancelled for later in the season, she said.
There will be a financial impact no matter what, since fishing operators, like any other businesspeople, are feeling the effects of high gas prices, said Stewart. The panfish limits were just one more nail in the coffin.
"She's (Cansfield) pulled one nail back out," said Stewart.
Bill Wills, who co-owns the Upper Rideau Resorts cabin rental business near Westport, said the MNR decision was "wonderful news," adding his business lost at least four or five rentals as a result of the limits.
People who stay at his cabins also buy bait in the area and eat at local restaurants, noted Wills.
"It's had to have some sort of large-scale detrimental effect."
Wills, who lives in Baltimore, said other pressures on American tourism to Canada, including the high Canadian dollar, high gas prices and uncertainty over U.S. passport rules, had no effect on his business last year.
But once the panfish limits became known, many fishermen stayed away as a result, said Wills.
Although his July and August rentals tend to be to families on vacation, the period from this coming weekend to mid-June tends to see fishermen rent his cabins, said Wills.
"A surprising percentage of them want to catch the panfish."
His business's next step will be to call back people who cancelled, said Wills.
Local opponents of the panfish limits felt the restrictions were imposed without consultation and without supporting scientific data.
They argued panfish such as crappies, yellow perch and sunfish are thriving in area lakes and preying on the eggs and fry of bass and walleye.
Randy Hillier, the Progressive-Conservative MPP for Lanark-Frontenac, Lennox and Addington and one of the leaders of the charge against the restrictions, welcomed their removal.
"I think it's a victory for rural Ontario," said Hillier, adding it is also "a victory for sensibility and reasonableness."
But the Opposition MPP said Cansfield assured him a variation order, which allows the minister to change catch limits as deemed necessary, could be done in two days.
He compared the panfish situation to another recent MNR about-face on bait size restrictions, saying it is symptomatic of a bureaucracy that does not want to admit mistakes.
"Here was ... another one of those simple little screwups by the MNR," said Hillier.
"It still took them six weeks to sign a variation order.
"Clearly, the bureaucracy is in control."
Hillier likes the "premise" of the advisory council, but worries it might be stacked in favour of "people from one side of the equation."
David Bauer, a spokesman for Cansfield, denied the delay was an example of bureaucracy run amok and said Hillier likely misinterpreted the minister's remark.
"We have to study situations as they come to us," he said. "Jumping the gun is just something that is irresponsible."
The ministry "did hear concerns from the local tourism industry" about the impact of the restrictions on business and strove to make a decision that favours the sustainability both of the species in question and the local economy, said Bauer.
The advisory committee is now being set up and its membership will be balanced, he added.
Now....ask yourself this....who REALLY needs more than 50 fish per licensed person in your family.....and you are willing to cancel your trip up because of it????.....doesn't sound like a vacation to me at all.....
)
And I agree that nobody should be pointing their fingers at anybody in this discussion. If there is a "problem" on a specific body of water, then that should be dealt with on a case by case basis, regardless of who is at the end of the fishing rod.
. I know I fished one spot this May and eventually ended up catching many fish that were hooked before.
