At the Mercy of an Officer

[stclairhound]

So if I did have a sport license and had a large musky die on me and brought it home, what exactly am I supposed to do with it? No intention of eating toxic meat and no desire to spend the $$ to mount the thing, so whats the point in keeping it? I realize that keeping it would be a legal requirement, but then what?

As someone who almost never keeps fish, I like the idea of a conservation license. I wish Quebec had something similar, but they do not so I pay full price for my PQ license.

I have had this conversation specifically with one of our local CO's at a local offseason show. If you have a conservation license you cannot possess that fish. As the conservation officer told me , that fish will have a better chance in the lake than in your freezer." If it dies, nature will take care of it. It will go back into the food chain. If you released the dead fish he cannot charge you as you do not have the license to possess it. However if he can prove to a judge or justice that you were deliberately targeting muskie with a conservation license you will be charged.

[dead_weight]

I have heard some similar remarks about bass fishing ... if you are caught with a bass setup on your rod before the season opens they can charge you for "trying" to fish bass out of season. However what happens if you say you are rigging up for pike ... season is open for them and many lures and baits are common to both ... and they share habitat ... I've always wondered what happens in this situation .. .thats why I stay clear of the bass areas when fishing spring pike.

I'm sure you guys have a more educated opinion of how this situation is handled by a CO ...

[MLR]

I have yet to come across a conservation officer that has clearly demonstrated a desire to write a ticket or summons to court. If you ever find yourself in the situation, you would best to stay calm and respectful. They have been trained in investigation techniques are pretty good at reading people and their body language and know if you are feeding them a line of crap.

The majority of them hunt and fish just the same as we do, and also have a job to do.

We all have an obligation to read and understand the regulations for the zone we are fishing in.

But if you do end up in a court room, it's going to be your word against theirs, and not too often you will win and will end up with your name in the local news paper. Who needs that embarrassment.

[Todd B.]

I have heard some similar remarks about bass fishing ... if you are caught with a bass setup on your rod before the season opens they can charge you for "trying" to fish bass out of season. However what happens if you say you are rigging up for pike ... season is open for them and many lures and baits are common to both ... and they share habitat ... I've always wondered what happens in this situation .. .thats why I stay clear of the bass areas when fishing spring pike.

I'm sure you guys have a more educated opinion of how this situation is handled by a CO ...

The COs will scope you out. If they watch you catch bass after bass, telling them you're fishing for pike isn't going to fly. If you start catching bass you're obligated to move to another location, otherwise you're considered to be targeting them.

[Woodsman]

RJ, it is on pg 9 under "catch and retain rules" specifically states it. you can keep your limit and still fish as long as you have live fish in your livewell that you may choose to cull. but if they are all dead, you may not target that species any more. this applies to walleye, pike and Bass only. this probably doesn't apply to trout cause they usually die in 10 minutes anyways.

Moonshine I suggest you re-read the section you quoted. No where in it does it state "you may not target that species any more".
What it does say is referring to selectively live release of fish (culling).
"Only fish that are in such a condition that they will survive may be released."

[Billy Dee]

This is a great conversation. It is interesting when these grey areas in the law come up for discussion. My gut feeling is that if an angler were to be in a situation such as this, doing everything to remain in compliance with the law is the best bet. They would then have a due diligence defence. I would however, be wary of any "second hand" legal advice from a discussion board and I wouldn't base my behaviour around it.

Any lawyers/judges on the forum board who might want to enlighten us?

[moonshine]

RJ, it is on pg 9 under "catch and retain rules" specifically states it. you can keep your limit and still fish as long as you have live fish in your livewell that you may choose to cull. but if they are all dead, you may not target that species any more. this applies to walleye, pike and Bass only. this probably doesn't apply to trout cause they usually die in 10 minutes anyways.

Moonshine I suggest you re-read the section you quoted. No where in it does it state "you may not target that species any more".
What it does say is referring to selectively live release of fish (culling).
"Only fish that are in such a condition that they will survive may be released."

you can not target a species if you have your limit and none of them are fit to be released. if you don't believe me call the MNR or test it for yourself

[basshunter10]

usually in my experience they are pretty lenient as long as you have a convincing story as to what happened. I've gotten out of a couple of tickets by just explaining the truth.. you'd be surprised how well that works

[Todd B.]

you can not target a species if you have your limit and none of them are fit to be released. if you don't believe me call the MNR or test it for yourself

moonshine,

The MNR regulations are quite specific w.r.t. to this and it is indeed legal to practice catch and release after you've reached your catch/possesion limit.

If you catch a fish after reaching the daily catch or possession limit for that species, the fish must be released immediately back to the water (see Ontario’s Catch and Retain Rules, on page 9). If the limit is zero, anglers may practise catch and release only and any fish caught must be released immediately back into the water in a manner that does not harm the fish. For some species there are no limits and no reference will be made to a limit in this Summary. See Size Limits, next page.

[moonshine]

you can not target a species if you have your limit and none of them are fit to be released. if you don't believe me call the MNR or test it for yourself

moonshine,

The MNR regulations are quite specific w.r.t. to this and it is indeed legal to practice catch and release after you've reached your catch/possesion limit.

If you catch a fish after reaching the daily catch or possession limit for that species, the fish must be released immediately back to the water (see Ontario’s Catch and Retain Rules, on page 9). If the limit is zero, anglers may practise catch and release only and any fish caught must be released immediately back into the water in a manner that does not harm the fish. For some species there are no limits and no reference will be made to a limit in this Summary. See Size Limits, next page.

yes Todd it is quite clear, it says "See Ontario's Catch and Retain Rules, on page 9"

according to these rules. if you catch a fish that will not survive, you are to include it in your daily limit. so does this mean in this instance that you are allowed 7 bass? i may have been born at night but it wasn't last night

[dead_weight]

Thanks for all the regs and rules you've all dug up .. as i said from the onset I suspected it's out there but I'm just a little lazy to find it ...

I do go back a little bit to a point that was brought up earlier ... if you are out fishing pike and catch a bass out of season you of course have to release it ... but as someone mentioned they do sometimes watch fishermen from afar to see if they are targeting a particular species thats not in season and could issue a ticket .. I have heard of this happening ... but man this can certainly be a gray area ... We all know that pike will bite so many of the same thing that bass bite ... I guess the only way to make this one stick is if you see someone pulling in bass after bass and record this as evidence (as I think someone already mentioned) ... but still seems like your word against theirs ... if the area is know to contain pike then they are covered by the argument "I was fishing pike and those dam bass kept biting my pike lure" ... !!!

[MLR]

Thanks for all the regs and rules you've all dug up .. as i said from the onset I suspected it's out there but I'm just a little lazy to find it ...

I do go back a little bit to a point that was brought up earlier ... if you are out fishing pike and catch a bass out of season you of course have to release it ... but as someone mentioned they do sometimes watch fishermen from afar to see if they are targeting a particular species thats not in season and could issue a ticket .. I have heard of this happening ... but man this can certainly be a gray area ... We all know that pike will bite so many of the same thing that bass bite ... I guess the only way to make this one stick is if you see someone pulling in bass after bass and record this as evidence (as I think someone already mentioned) ... but still seems like your word against theirs ... if the area is know to contain pike then they are covered by the argument "I was fishing pike and those dam bass kept biting my pike lure" ... !!!

Good luck with "my word against theirs" or "I was fishing pike and those dam bass kept biting my pike lure" in a court room. Keep in mind in a lot of cases the judge or justice of the peace gets to set the fine, so go ahead and be the court jester and get a maximum fine for pee pee him or her off. Also making the suggestion that the officer is lying or fabricating the truth better be backed up with some significant proof.

But go on bass fishing early if that's really what makes you morally and ethically feel good about yourself.

[RJ]

Moonshine,

I went thru this exact conversation laker opener this year....it was relayed to me directly from the head of enforcement for Eastern Ontario that you can continue to fish even though you have reached your limit....at that point you simply practice catch and release.

It was mentioned that you do now run the risk of having a fish that you may not be able to release....but it is not illegal to continue fishing.

RJ

[Todd B.]

yes Todd it is quite clear, it says "See Ontario's Catch and Retain Rules, on page 9"

according to these rules. if you catch a fish that will not survive, you are to include it in your daily limit. so does this mean in this instance that you are allowed 7 bass? i may have been born at night but it wasn't last night

You are correct. If you already have your limit of fish (assuming you cannot release any) then if you subsequently kill another one you would be either ticketed for exceeding your limit if you kept it or ticketed for wasting fish. Until it actually occurs you're still within the law.

Besides, as it was mentioned earlier, there's still the catch-22 with the size limits. If a fish that has been accidentally killed does not fall within the legal size limits would you get fined for wasting a fish since you can't legally keep it?

There are a number of grey areas within the regulations if you really dig into them. Granted it would be nice if the MNR provided an easy mechanism to provide feedback on the regs so they can improve the wording, etc in each update.

[Out4trout]

I agree Todd. There is some ambiguity.

This topic is answered directly via Q&A on the MNR website. However, it states here that once a fish has been in your livewell, it counts towards your limit even if it is later culled.

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/En ... tml#limits