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Hey Legend, I respect the next guys opinion as much as anyone. I also respect a guy that will stand his ground when he has an opinion.
The cormorants are a serious problem though. It's a numbers game right now that the birds are starting to win. Populations are soring and they have to eat. There's lots of guys that have the same outlook as you..."I catch lots of fish and I see lots of birds, what's the problem?" An unnatural high population of any species is damaging to the environment, whether it be birds or fish.
Unfortunately people had a good hand in creating this problem and now they have to try and fix things. There's no good way to do this. A culling will have to take place, whether it be an egg culling or an adult culling.
Make no mistake, The cormorant population is a serious problem. Maybe the cormorants can be trained to eat the gobbies!
Legend- I never said you were not entitled to an opinion. You and everyone else have the right to state your opinion. However, from your comments, it seems you have not taken the time to research this problem.
Cormorants are not native to this part of the world.
They do consume gamefish and panfish- by the 10's of millions.
They have seriously impacted fish stocks in areas where their numbers they have gone unchecked.
Without human intervention, you will see your fishing success decline.
There are actions being taken to fight the other concerns you outlined- more efficient outboards, reductions in emissions by industries that cause acid rain, changes in agricultural practices to reduce harmful runoff (Bay of Quinte is a prime example), increased surveillance and regulations on ships entering Canadian waters, and so on.
No one has said that the explosion in the cormorant population is the only threat to our fisheries. But it is a major threat, and, to date, might possibly be the only major threat that has not been addressed seriously by our various levels of government.
When you talk of "biological nuisances", please include the double-crested cormorant in that category. Thanks.
On the recent trip to Algonquin, put in Muskwa Lake, right beside the Brent road. Could have sworn I saw some Cormorants in the trees on one of the islands on the lake. The gulls kept harrassing them and driving them off. They kept coming back, so must have been fish in the lake............I didn't catch any, but thats just me.
Unfortunately not allowed firearms in APP.
With regards to the Americans doing the pike C & R........... .......What were they using.........We used to use half ounce or ounce bucktails for pike down around Maitland. Do they still do the job??
- cormorants have nested in Lake of the Woods (in northwestern Ontario) for hundreds of years. If that doesn't make them native to this part of the world, what will it take?
- all salmon in the Great Lakes, except for Atlantic salmon are not native, should we get rid of them?
- rainbow and brown trout are not native, let eradicate them too.
- By the late 1940s and early 1950s the cormorant had become so common that control measures were authorized in some areas of Ontario to reduce suspected competition with commercial and sport fisheries.
- Both sanctioned and unsanctioned controls largely ended by 1960. At best, the controls only slowed the growth of the cormorant population during the 1940s and 1950s; they probably did not reduce its size appreciably.
- cormorant population in the Great Lakes declined in the 50's and 60's due to high levels of toxic contaminants in the environment - DDE & PCBs.
- Decline of large predatory fish in the late 30s to 50s, primarily Lake Trout and, to a lesser extent, Burbot, was caused by many factors, including years of heavy fishing, the invasion of the sea lamprey, the loss of spawning areas. Increased amounts of toxic contaminants entering the lakes may have also been a factor.
- With the decline of larger predatory fish, the smaller fish species underwent an unprecedented population explosion. The main species involved in this increase were Rainbow Smelt and Alewife, neither of which was native to the upper Great Lakes.
- Studies have repeatedly shown that in a natural environment, cormorants feed primarily on small, largely non-commercial, shallow-water fish. On the Great Lakes, these include abundant species such as Alewife, Rainbow Smelt and Yellow Perch. The birds also take much smaller numbers of White Suckers, Pumpkinseed, crappie, bass and sticklebacks
- 2 of the non-native fish species are targeted by cormorants.
- The smaller prey fish came under heavy predation pressure in the 1980s, with the massive stocking of salmon and trout in most of the Great Lakes. As a result, the population of smaller fish decreased.
- In the mid-1970s, cormorant numbers began a dramatic recovery, doubling every 3 years.
- studies of cormorant diets in Lake Ontario show that less than 2% of the prey found in cormorant pellets is Lake Trout or salmon. Also, cormorants consume only about 0.5% of the prey fish, which is insignificant when compared to about 13% taken by sport fish.
- cormorants eat fish, they need them to survive.
- Humans eat fish, meat, poultry, plants, etc. Humans do not need fish so survive.
- Humans are not native to this part of the world. Their population increases unchecked as they have no natural enemies. They have been encroaching on and destroying the habitat of native species (fish and wildlife) for years. The powers that be must set up a program to cull the population, either by spraying their eggs with a toxic chemical or by culling adults to reduce the population. Something must be done.
slushpuppy wrote:
- all salmon in the Great Lakes, except for Atlantic salmon are not native, should we get rid of them?
- rainbow and brown trout are not native, let eradicate them too?
The salmonoids are a managed put and take industry. This success story supports the idea that proper management of the cormorants is possible.
Humans are not native to this part of the world. Their population increases unchecked as they have no natural enemies. They have been encroaching on and destroying the habitat of native species (fish and wildlife) for years. The powers that be must set up a program to cull the population, either by spraying their eggs with a toxic chemical or by culling adults to reduce the population. Something must be done.
Also to my point that any population to high is unhealthy for the environment.
I don't want to support the cormorant culling so I can catch my limit of perch when I want to, I want the cormorant population controled so I don't have to see the day there are no perch in our lakes.
Existing fees collected from recreational fishermen and hunters in Ontario support MNR's Fish and Wildlife Management program to the tune of about 70% annually.
My biggest concern is for the future of recreational walleye fishing in Ontario. One major detriment to a healthy walleye fishery, IMHO, is the illogical harvest sizes carried out by native fishers, particularly commercial native fishers.
The LOMU 2000 annual report provided data for the BOQ that total native harvest was 70 % of the total annual harvest based on numbers of fish. Based on biomass (weight) basis, the total native harvest represented 85 % of the total BOQ walleye harvest.
A recent post on walleye central http://www.walleyecentral.com/dc/dcboar ... 3293&page=
warned about increasing native harvests of walleye in Lake of the Woods. Another poster responded by referencing the story about increased native harvesting of walleye in Lake Nipssiing that was first reported in late Jan 04.
Yes, perhaps it's true that anything we do collectively or individually won't help one bit. However, doing nothing isn't acceptable.
Colour me bad, I'm an environmentalist who likes to fish. When I get out of doors, I enjoy the total natural experience. I don't see fishing as a business and I don't see the distributive nature of the argument surrounding Cormorants. This isn't about industry, this is about our almost arrogant approach to controlling nature itself. Instead of helping and trusting natural processes we believe we can manipulate and tailor a natural environment to our own selfish specifications. What we probably ought to do is help it along. I just feel that Cormorants are an easy and vulnerable target, the flavour of the month if you will.
The last gentleman raised an interesting point about aboriginal fishing. I wasn't going to go there, but his points are not without merit.
At the end of the day, there may have to be some intervention with Cormorants. I just hope the same individuals have the nads to address the plethorae of other fish depleting issues as this one.
If you've been up the CN tower in the last few years you might get an interesting perspective on the polution levels in the atmosphere... Lets see the OFAH try and criticize the petroleum industry for the sulphur contents in gasoline. (not likely)
Can you tell it rained all weekend and very few of us got out fishing?
I can say that there are two sides of this story... and both bear careful consideration.... I personally dispise the Cormorant and would take part in any cull operation that was mandated by the MNR...... and yes.... I would say that other introduced species need to be carefully monitored and eleminated if possible to save natural stocks of fish and animals. Will we do it... probably not.... we will let Mother Nature have the final word and then we will learn from it.
I did make it out.... on the Ottawa and spotted Cormorant.... now where are those salmonoids when I needed them. River is cresting very high... fish there but nothing hitting. Had to put in at Rockland due to a flooded ramp at Petrie. Took the old ride out for a last putt putt before selling her this week. Wouldn't you know it she started best she ever has in the spring...... gonna miss the old girl but will really enjoy the new ride.
Its been great too hear everyones ideas about this issue. I think most of us agree that fishing in Ontario is a privlidged experience.
My thoughts on the matter goes like this...
Growing up in this wonderfull province i've seen many changes in the fisheries, and in the fisherman. I have noticed exactly what Legend noticed...
I've seen people walking around with your basic roofing bucket keeping 4 inch fish
This disturbes me...I have confronted and explained to many people like this about the regulations that must be followed.....but they either dont understand english, or they dont want to understand. Most of the people commiting these acts arent even aware that Canada has fishing regulations. This is because many of these people are immigrants who are not use to having fishing regulations that they must follow. What I suggest is that when u see people like this, confront them with an MNR regulations booklet and explain to them how too use it....be polite...and they may just listen...
As a former BC flyfisher I can tell you what they are doing there. First of all, and I get a lot of flack for this around here, you have to cancel ice fishing on small lakes. Out west, the lakes are patrolled by the fishing clubs and offenders are reported. Next, and here is the cruellest cut of all for many of you: no motor boats and artificial fly only. That's what they do out there and that is what we need to do here. Also more effort on habitat restoration, also done by many of the fishing clubs along with the ministry. Thats my 2 cents worth
bobfly
Oh, I should add that for some lakes, it is barbless hooks and mandatory catch and release which I actually don't like because sometimes it doesn't work.
Yes, there is anecdotal evidence that cormorants have been seen on Lake of the Woods since as early as 1798. BUT, the first confirmed nesting in that area was in Minnesota in 1915.
The earliest recorded nesting in Ontario was in 1920. They supposedly moved eastward into Lake Huron in the early 30's, and only hit Lake Ontario in 1938 and Erie in 1939. In 1983 they began nesting in Oneida Lake down in wolfe's neck of the woods. They are now nesting at least as far east as Lake Champlain, where control methods have been instituted.
When I used the phrase "in this part of the world" in a previous post, I was talking about my own little corner of the world- Central and Eastern Ontario. I don't consider Lake of the Woods and points west to be my backyard. Selfish maybe, but if they welcome cormorants out west, that's their business. They are not native to central and eastern Ontario, and I personally consider them an invasive species- no different from zebra mussels and the rest.
Another point- the "smaller numbers" of smallmouth bass that the cormorant population of the eastern basin of Lake Ontario alone takes on an annual basis is a measley 1.3 million! Add to that a measley 15 million or so perch. A drop in the bucket? Hardly.
It's important to get detailed information if you want to be able to make an informed decision on whether you will consider cormorants a threat to our fisheries. When studies state that only 1.5% of the fish consumed by cormorants are smallmouth bass, that doesn't sound too bad at all does it? Now when that 1.5% turns out to be 1.3 million smallies, 14% (182,000) of which are over 12 inches in length , hopefully that will open some eyes. And, by the way, the figures I've quoted, from the U.S. Geological Survey, are the lowest percentages and numbers from the many studies I have read on the subject of cormorant diets.
People will believe what they want to believe. The only reason I've bothered to post this information is so that comments that the cormorants have "always been here", "they only eat baitfish" and so on can be exposed as erroneous.
I promise to stop flogging this dead horse- for now...
HAVE WE NOT BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE Tom I agree with you the Cormorants are a BIG problem...I think people just can't register how may fish 1.3 million bass is...to damn many These birds have to controlled!!! I guess we will never change the minds of all the people....and thats fine as long as it opens their eyes a little wider to the problem. Legend/Slushpuppy I resect your out look on the subject...as I did when we went thru this with Wolfe...but please read the facts on these birds...they are not written by Anglers or by enviromentalist...they are facts wether we like or not , they are the facts! No body wants a mass slaughter...just controll ....no more no less
Anectodal? Mmmm, someone will have to tell the University of Minnesota / U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. In their report, they state the Lake of the Woods had its first recorded breeding pair in 1758. But, we don’t care about that Western place. The second edition of the American Ornithologists’ Union Checklist of North American Birds (1895) states the breeding range of the double-crested cormorant as “the Bay of Fundy, the Great Lakes, Minnesota and Dakota northward.†Even if nothing was “confirmed†before 1915 doesn’t mean that the birds weren’t there.
Here’s are more facts that I just pulled out of the air with my eyes closed:
Many historical records from across the continent indicate that the species was or may have been more abundant and widespread than is currently presumed. While most of these early accounts are largely qualitative, many report huge numbers of cormorants, suggesting that recent population increases may represent recovery towards historical (presettlement) levels in certain regions. In some areas where the double-crested cormorant has been documented as a recent breeder, the species is actually re-colonizing after an absence of 50 – 300 years. (from University of Minnesota / U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service)
Scientifically speaking, double-crested cormorants are native to all of North America, regardless of whether they existed in any given location at the turn of the century or not. The expansion of cormorant populations into locations where they have not existed in recent memory (but most likely did occur in the past), represents normal range recolonization/expansion associated with the population growth of cormorants over the last ~25 years. Thus, double-crested cormorants do not fall into the same category as non-native species such as fire ants, starlings, ruffe, brown trout, or zebra mussels, all of which were introduced by humans, either accidentally or intentionally. Fact: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service maintains that the double-crested cormorant is a native species throughout North America. Yes, that includes your backyard.
The figures you quote (1.3 million smallies) are from a study in a specific location, 3 islands in Eastern Lake Ontario, NY. You’re comparing it to percentages stated in other studies done for the whole lake. Cormorants in that eastern part of the lake consume more smallies because “smallmouth bass remain the most abundant and widespread sport fish in the eastern basinâ€. The percentage of smallies in their diet there is estimated to be 3.6%, yellow perch at 28 and alewife at 27%. Yellow perch are sometimes abundantly represented in the diet of cormorants, though significant impacts have not been documented.
The 1.3 million figure was arrived at using the assumption that cormorants produce 1.0 pellets per day. Recent field research on the rate of pellet formation for other Phalacrocoracidae species suggests that this is too high a rate of pellet production. Research indicates that pellets may integrate meals over a substantial time period, and a single pellet should not be assumed to represent one day’s food intake, as less than or greater than one pellet / day may be produced. Less frequent pellet production suggests that models assuming a production rate of 1.0 pellets / day may overestimate fish consumption and consequently impacts to fisheries.
Statistics from the Glenora Fisheries Research Station (Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources) In 1991, for example, there were about 6.1 million sport fish in eastern Lake Ontario (doesn’t really match what U.S. Geological Survey says, just goes to show that you can make statistics say anything you want them to say). The average annual food consumption by a single Lake Trout is 6.5 kg. The average annual intake of a cormorant on Lake Ontario is 65 kg. In other words one cormorant eats about as much as ten Lake Trout. Approximately 30,000 cormorants fed in eastern Lake Ontario in 1991. Thus, these birds would eat the same amount of fish as 300,000 Lake Trout. Since there are about 6.1 million sport fish in eastern Lake Ontario, this means the cormorants are eating the same amount of fish as only 5% of the sport fish. Hence, scientists and fish managers conclude that the amount of fish which cormorants consume in eastern Lake Ontario is not a serious threat to the sport fish.
As for the size of fish taken by cormorants, a study at catfish hatcheries said: double-crested cormorants are capable of taking catfish up to 42 centimeters (16 inches) in length, studies repeatedly have shown that the vast majority of catfish caught by cormorants at commercial facilities are in the range of 3-8 inches, with most averaging about 4-6 inches. This range of prey sizes is remarkably close to that of prey taken by cormorants in natural freshwater habitats. In such studies, prey size ranged from 2-8 inches, with a median value of about 5 inches.
Smallmouth bass populations in the eastern basin of Lake Ontario are dependent on a number of factors, including water temperature, year class strength, time of spawning, food availability, competition, predation pressure, and fishing mortality. Many changes have occurred in the eastern basin of Lake Ontario in recent years that could affect these factors, including reduced lake productivity, the introduction of zebra mussels, increased water clarity, and increased abundance of two piscivorous species, both double-crested cormorant and walleye. Food web alterations and subsequent shifts in nutrient cycling are important changes that may be caused by zebra mussels. However, little is known about the actual impacts of these changes on the population dynamics of smallmouth bass.
1.8 million U.S anglers fished the Great Lakes in 2001, averaging at 13 days per angler (that’s 23.4 million fishing-days!). That’s not counting the Canadian anglers. Since the mid-1970s, the number of charter boats increased from 500 to more than 3,000.
Cormorants will not eat all the fish until they’re gone. Unlike humans, predator population decreases as their prey decreases. Predators will produce less young or move to other areas when there isn’t enough food to go around, it’s the nature of things. When the prey population increases, the predators will start to produce more young. Humans are the only predator to hunt their prey into near or total extinction (passenger pigeon, Atlantic salmon). We try to “manage†resources for our own benefit, introducing non-native species that compete with native ones (or try to replace the ones we’ve annihilated). Just because it’s good for their pocketbook doesn’t make it right.
Rigorous quantification of cormorant predation on fish populations or on subsequent sport or commercial catches requires more precise estimates of several key parameters, including: prey fish population sizes; prey fish mortality sources and rates; age class distribution of fish consumed. Additionally, a better understanding of compensatory processes within prey fish populations is essential (e.g., predation may reduce competition so that remaining fish survive longer or younger fish grow faster). However, no study conducted so far has obtained robust estimates for all of these parameters. therefore, while double-crested cormorants may cause fish populations to decline, none of the studies reviewed provided data rigorous enough to demonstrate that they do so.
No-one has been able to prove that the cormorant is the only factor that contributes to fish population decline. The cormorant is simply the easiest target, it doesn’t talk back, can’t shoot you in self-defense, can’t take you to court and can’t use chemical warfare to get rid of you. We don't have the right to kill those birds, just like we don't have the right to kill anything else. Fishing, to me, is a privilege, to the birds, it's a right. I can move on to something else, birds can't.
Great research! Slush puppy, you've looked up some great facts...good for you, it's great to see a strong debate being backed with research facts.
Native or not, I'll never change my opinion about a culling. Fishermen will never have a loud enough vioce to be heard, so I'm hoping the parks department will step up and push the much needed cull through.
Maybe they'll buddy up with the Canada Goose and become even more of a nuscience. I'm not sure how well cormarants decoy in, but I'd be willing to paint a few of my mallard decoys black. Who know....a little hickory brine and I might have a new snack!
Flashbacks to my introduction to Fish-Hawk.Net !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a way to introduce myself to you all.
(Remember when you all hated me?)
Again, let's agree to disagree and still remain friends. You can't force someone to change their basic beliefs or ethics. I'm still staunchly with Legend, Slushpuppy, and (minority!) others; however I do agree if the population is proven out of control, then a humane measure can be exercised to decrease populations. Decrease -- not erradicate. Humane (egg oiling sounds most reasonable). No, I am not PETA.
Remember how I ended my last post back then: no need to beat a dead cormorant. Over & out.
.......What were they using.........We used to use half ounce or ounce bucktails for pike down around Maitland. Do they still do the job??
Colour me bad, I'm an environmentalist who likes to fish. When I get out of doors, I enjoy the total natural experience. I don't see fishing as a business and I don't see the distributive nature of the argument surrounding Cormorants. This isn't about industry, this is about our almost arrogant approach to controlling nature itself. Instead of helping and trusting natural processes we believe we can manipulate and tailor a natural environment to our own selfish specifications. What we probably ought to do is help it along. I just feel that Cormorants are an easy and vulnerable target, the flavour of the month if you will. 
Tom I agree with you the Cormorants are a BIG problem...I think people just can't register how may fish 1.3 million bass is...to damn many 
These birds have to controlled!!! I guess we will never change the minds of all the people....and thats fine as long as it opens their eyes a little wider to the problem. Legend/Slushpuppy I resect your out look on the subject...as I did when we went thru this with Wolfe...but please read the facts on these birds...they are not written by Anglers or by enviromentalist...they are facts wether we like or not , they are the facts! No body wants a mass slaughter...just controll ....no more no less 