There are no mods on this site as I have been informed of in the past. There is really only one person who can do anything about threads like this gettng out of control and that is Bobber. I am not sure why this has gone on as long as it has.
This is the reason I have dropped off the site and not posted as much or replied to much, it just isnt fun anymore. I posted a fishing report for the first time in a long time and it has 8 replies compared to this one. This just reinforces the fact that people just like to read and reply to controversy. I am guilty of it right now. I have read this entire thread and am pretty put off by the insults flying around. I see that certain people only post here to continue the crap and admittedly so. WHY? Is it a turn on for you guys?
Time to grow up, fellas and move on. I wont hide behind my computer and if anyone has a problem with me just pm me and I will tell you exactly where I am located and you can come and visit if you wish, I definitely wont run away. I am open to discussing an issue face to face.
From now on though I think I will just hang back and limit my posts to either positive feedback on someones post or MAYBE I WILL POST MY OWN REPORTS. But if things continue this way I think I will be putting an end to my stay on this site and move on to another.
another panfish report
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Kpin
- Gold Participant
- Posts: 1325
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:08 pm
- Location: Da Great White North...Eh!
I didn't notice this thread until it grew to a multitude of pages that, without reading it, told me, it was yet, ANOTHER one of those threads.
So I read it in it's entirety.
Few comments...that perhaps will add little or naught.
No one owns the waters. One may own the land and if given permission or not asked directly not to fish, from said land...(self explanatory, really).
The same re-occuring theme keeps popping up here. A general disrespect. Is it incomprehensible to actually intelligently put a point accross without being insulting, vindictive or resort to infantile name calling?
Sadly, for the most part it seems to be from relatively new members. I know most members here to be good folks. We all love fishing. We're all concerned about our enviornment.
How in God's name does insulting someone aid in this way? Time to step up and be a better man. Time to look at the big. pic. Or perhaps, even time for Dad to yank internet access to the younger gen. that cannot maturely discuss an issue.
I'm actually sorry I read this whole thread. Not for a location revealed, not for a silly sign but more importantly, for the sadness it brings seeing the lvl of disrespect shown.
I say this in my humble opinion and is not aimed at many of our fine younger gen. of anglers. It's aimed at those who cannot intelligently discuss an issue without it degrading to this point.
It's safe to say, the vast majority of the site will not put up with such infantile behavior. No one wants a hooligan crashing an otherwise civilized party and would show them the door.
It may perhaps be time to clean house.
So I read it in it's entirety.
Few comments...that perhaps will add little or naught.
No one owns the waters. One may own the land and if given permission or not asked directly not to fish, from said land...(self explanatory, really).
The same re-occuring theme keeps popping up here. A general disrespect. Is it incomprehensible to actually intelligently put a point accross without being insulting, vindictive or resort to infantile name calling?
Sadly, for the most part it seems to be from relatively new members. I know most members here to be good folks. We all love fishing. We're all concerned about our enviornment.
How in God's name does insulting someone aid in this way? Time to step up and be a better man. Time to look at the big. pic. Or perhaps, even time for Dad to yank internet access to the younger gen. that cannot maturely discuss an issue.
I'm actually sorry I read this whole thread. Not for a location revealed, not for a silly sign but more importantly, for the sadness it brings seeing the lvl of disrespect shown.
I say this in my humble opinion and is not aimed at many of our fine younger gen. of anglers. It's aimed at those who cannot intelligently discuss an issue without it degrading to this point.
It's safe to say, the vast majority of the site will not put up with such infantile behavior. No one wants a hooligan crashing an otherwise civilized party and would show them the door.
It may perhaps be time to clean house.
Well, I took the time to read through this thread and found it disgusting 
I debated about whether or not to comment but decided that like many others on this site I felt the only way to fight the bullies is to stand up to them and to let the decent contributors know that the majority does not support this behaviour. I would not let my children behave in this manner so find it reprehensible that adults feel it is acceptable.
My hat is of to you Wolfman for a very good positive initial post and your desire to help fellow anglers with a location to catch some panfish. The same thing goes for those of you who responded positively to Wolfman's post and ignored the rudeness and unnecessary criticisms.
For the rest of you that resorted to bigotry, name calling and needless criticisms all I can say is shame on you.
Badger Shark I thought that you expressed it well in your comments however, I hope that you remain on the site as you are one of the positive forces that make it a good site.
It is inapproriate and unfair to hijack an excellent and helpful post and turn it into something so ugly. If we are going to continue to allow inappropriate debate go on unabated on the site then I would suggest that we fight that urge to respond in-kind to the non-helpful and often beligerent discussions and perhaps it will discourage those comments in the future.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion and it is not necessary for us all to agree. My suggestion to all members is that in the future when we see this foolishness start to not respond negatively but to proactively advise the member to begin a new threat to discuss his or her issues around the subject. Let the existing thread continue for the purpose that it was intended.
I would encourage those who wish to start or participate in a debate over an issue they feel is imporant that they do so on a new thread pertaining to that subject.
I will fight the urge to be ran of this site by the bullies and like so many members I will try and overcome my hesitation to post based upon the risk that I will be attacked. I encourage others to stay and do the same.
Suddsy
I debated about whether or not to comment but decided that like many others on this site I felt the only way to fight the bullies is to stand up to them and to let the decent contributors know that the majority does not support this behaviour. I would not let my children behave in this manner so find it reprehensible that adults feel it is acceptable.My hat is of to you Wolfman for a very good positive initial post and your desire to help fellow anglers with a location to catch some panfish. The same thing goes for those of you who responded positively to Wolfman's post and ignored the rudeness and unnecessary criticisms.
For the rest of you that resorted to bigotry, name calling and needless criticisms all I can say is shame on you.
Badger Shark I thought that you expressed it well in your comments however, I hope that you remain on the site as you are one of the positive forces that make it a good site.
It is inapproriate and unfair to hijack an excellent and helpful post and turn it into something so ugly. If we are going to continue to allow inappropriate debate go on unabated on the site then I would suggest that we fight that urge to respond in-kind to the non-helpful and often beligerent discussions and perhaps it will discourage those comments in the future.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion and it is not necessary for us all to agree. My suggestion to all members is that in the future when we see this foolishness start to not respond negatively but to proactively advise the member to begin a new threat to discuss his or her issues around the subject. Let the existing thread continue for the purpose that it was intended.
I would encourage those who wish to start or participate in a debate over an issue they feel is imporant that they do so on a new thread pertaining to that subject.
I will fight the urge to be ran of this site by the bullies and like so many members I will try and overcome my hesitation to post based upon the risk that I will be attacked. I encourage others to stay and do the same.
Suddsy
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GeezerFish
- Participant
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:02 pm
Hi,
I'm new to fish-hawk but being a former member of Carleton Golf and Yacht club (I left the club this year after 5 great seasons there), I just wanted to clear up a few issues/comments about the club and its orignal builder that I have read in previous posts.
1 - The gentlemen who originally built the club is a great guy by the name of Mort Kalin (I've met him, he and his wife attended my wedding and is a friend of my wife's family) and he has very much worked hard during his lifetime. FYI: He's also built another golf course that's very similar to Carleton in Florida.
2 - There is no single owner of the club. It's a private golf club that is wholely owned by the members. Therefore, yes there is a Club Manager, his name is Greg Richardson and I think it's great and courteous that you guys spoke to him (most likely) about fishing there. But as an FYI, and to touch on waterfowler's original posting of garbage being left there etc. If the members become annoyed with garbage or too many fishermen there, they can present a motion to the board (whom are members elected by members) to erect no trespassing signs etc etc which would overrule the club manager's permission (who is employed by the members BTW) to fish there and therefore, ruin it for everyone.
Anyway, just to sum it up, enjoy your fishing there but please be sure to pick up your garbage and be courteous and respectful of the golfing members, it is afterall their club and their property that they pay good money to be members/owners of.
Actually, while I'm at it, one more piece of history as an FYI ... the course is called Carleton Golf and Yacht club, but notice the yacht club is across the river. They boaters used to doc on the same side of the golf course and both societies shared the clubhouse. But over time the two societies clashed (over things like the dress code etiquette etc.) and before long the marriage was over so to speak. The couse kept the Yacht in the name for historical purposes. Anyway to sum it up, the golfing members have an image they want to portray and if that image is threatened (in the sense of garbage littering the property that is), they will act on it.
Happy fishing!
Cheers!
Guy
I'm new to fish-hawk but being a former member of Carleton Golf and Yacht club (I left the club this year after 5 great seasons there), I just wanted to clear up a few issues/comments about the club and its orignal builder that I have read in previous posts.
1 - The gentlemen who originally built the club is a great guy by the name of Mort Kalin (I've met him, he and his wife attended my wedding and is a friend of my wife's family) and he has very much worked hard during his lifetime. FYI: He's also built another golf course that's very similar to Carleton in Florida.
2 - There is no single owner of the club. It's a private golf club that is wholely owned by the members. Therefore, yes there is a Club Manager, his name is Greg Richardson and I think it's great and courteous that you guys spoke to him (most likely) about fishing there. But as an FYI, and to touch on waterfowler's original posting of garbage being left there etc. If the members become annoyed with garbage or too many fishermen there, they can present a motion to the board (whom are members elected by members) to erect no trespassing signs etc etc which would overrule the club manager's permission (who is employed by the members BTW) to fish there and therefore, ruin it for everyone.
Anyway, just to sum it up, enjoy your fishing there but please be sure to pick up your garbage and be courteous and respectful of the golfing members, it is afterall their club and their property that they pay good money to be members/owners of.
Actually, while I'm at it, one more piece of history as an FYI ... the course is called Carleton Golf and Yacht club, but notice the yacht club is across the river. They boaters used to doc on the same side of the golf course and both societies shared the clubhouse. But over time the two societies clashed (over things like the dress code etiquette etc.) and before long the marriage was over so to speak. The couse kept the Yacht in the name for historical purposes. Anyway to sum it up, the golfing members have an image they want to portray and if that image is threatened (in the sense of garbage littering the property that is), they will act on it.
Happy fishing!
Cheers!
Guy
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wolfe
- Diamond Participant
- Posts: 7588
- Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:04 am
- Location: Marietta, NY & Wolfe Lake, Ont.
I think I like Geezerfish! Thanks for the nice way to introduce yourself in such a sensible, informative & civilized post.
Welcome and I hope we get to hear some more from you soon.
I think it's a great reminder to everyone to pick up after themselves (and if you've got a free moment and need karma points, after others) when you're out at the water's edge. The garbage really piles up.
W.
Welcome and I hope we get to hear some more from you soon.
I think it's a great reminder to everyone to pick up after themselves (and if you've got a free moment and need karma points, after others) when you're out at the water's edge. The garbage really piles up.
W.
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fliptheslop
- Participant
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:08 am
The common theme to most of these threads always seems to be the garbadge left behind, the problem is there is no recourse to all the people that leave their junk behind.You cant go any where and not see the litter left behind, many places even put out garbadge cans, but still folks wont use them,Idont know how this can ever be changed, some say well lets get together and clean it up, problem the litterers see this and think, oh well someone will pick it up so why not just leave it here. Know one seems to want to get envolved now days with turning people in for breaking the law, but we do have laws here about littering, people need to know that if you leave your garbdge behind you will be fined.NOW THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION IS: how do we do that?
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Bobber
- Diamond Participant
- Posts: 3182
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:40 am
- Location: Stittsville, Ontario
- Contact:
Folks,
It is true, I am the only moderator of this site and the only one with access to stop threads like this one. Unfortunately I cannot possibly read every single post that is made here, and also continue to develop and research new things for the site, otherwise I would have stopped this a long time ago, and it would not have gotten this far. My apologies. With a title like "another pan fish report" who'd of thought it could be turned into this. I rely on the community to send me a note when something like this comes up and starts to get out of hand, like I just received. Other sites may have anywhere from 5 to 10 moderators, that perhaps helps out a lot to avoid this, but at this time, it's only me.
To this end I request your help. I will be adding a small icon at the header of the forums for quick and easy access for anyone to send me a PM when threads like this one begin to go downhill. This will help a lot I'm sure, and will basically give you all the power of self moderation.
Now, onto the essense of where this one has taken us. I don't believe Waterfowler is a bad guy, just very passionate about things that disturb him, just like many of us are passionate about other things. I don't however believe he handled his passion in the most effective manner, which snowballed into more controversy and upset members. I take part responsibility for this, as I was not there to stop it before it got out of hand. I do however look to the participating members to set the tone of where controversy goes. Let's not kid ourselves, there will always be controversy about something. Again, it's how you handle it, that sets the tone. Part of the responsibility is yours.
Private property is private property for sure, and should not be tresspassed on without expressed permission from the owner of that property. People "sneaking" onto property to get to a place is not acceptable, however let's all be honest guys, there will be times where un-intentional tresspassing is going to happen, or "presumed" permission from seeing others at the spot will occur.
How do we handle things like that? Certainly not the way it was handled here. Obviously the rules on ettiquete and code of conduct need to be re-read by a few, unless of course you all want a crap site and basically destroy the community of contributors we have.
I don't normally mention people specifically, however I feel it necessary to address the root cause problems of this thread.
Waterfowler, this whole controvery started with your aggressive post indicating your dis-satisfaction with the fact that the report was from a spot that was accessed via Private Property, so my focus is on this. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
If this is your personal private property, then there are far better ways to communicate that you don't want anyone on it. If it's not, which I'm sure is the casse, and you have been disgusted with the litter around the spot, then the only business you should have here is to notify the anglers and the readers that this is Private Property, and they need to get permission to be on it, and clean up after themselves. That seems to be the message, and a good message, which should have been communicated in a much better way. Suggestions for tackling litter in these areas is more than welcome.
For those in favour of not identifying specific spots, they are for sure valid now. We've seen a change over the years which is trending towards encouraging people to "find their spots", rather than be told where to go. A few years ago, the members of this were praised for providing this information freely, and many former posters, who have participated in this discussion and several others, benefited from this information in their earlier days. Now...not so much, but don't blame Fish-Hawk.Net. There will always be people who like to communicate spots, that's not going to change. Education and informing people on the norm today is the approach that needs to be taken. Keep your spots to yourself if you'd like, report on your catches, but don't blame Fish-Hawk.Net when someone else finds the same spot you've found, no matter how they found it. Calling people freeloaders and yahoos is not tolerated here. Referring to Joco as Joke-O, is blatent disrepect for a member, and is no way condoned by this site. They metion of having to be a "card carrying poster" to have your oppinions heard is way off the mark. You just need to respect the people who you are attempting to communicate with if you expect them to listen to you. Your fist mention of your dissatisfaction was not respectful, with obvious anger and apparent attach against people and the Internet in general. This was the root of the problem. So while your underlying message is a good one, the delivery of the message should have been handled a lot better than it was.
CrappieKeith, GetTheNet, Molecat, and others, thanks for trying to get the thread back on track....numerous times, and supporting the essence of what this community is all about. It truly is meant for learning, sharing, and meeting new "friends". We seem to fight amongst ourselves a lot. I don't understand it really. We're all fishermen striving to catch fish and learning how to fish better. Why can't we use that to our advantage and act like a community, instead of a linch mob.
For those who supported Waterfowler's message, I most likely think you saw the intent of that message and disregarded the delivery of it, however I think you also used it to indirectly push your own messages and attempt to take this site down a notch or two. Whether you agree with me or not, it definately seems to be the trend in other posts you've made on controversial topics. I suppose I need to expect this type of thing happening however.
For those who are considering leaving and not posting reports, I ask you to re-consider. Fish-Hawk.Net has been successful due to the participation of the community. I have always promoted that message, and will continue to do so, even during the controversial times. If the community doesn't participate, then there is no Fish-Hawk.Net. I know this, you know this, our supporters know this, it's no secret. It's the essence of what has been build here. I do however encourage some tact and respect regarding the posting of specific locations publically. This seems to be the root cause of why people have a problem with Internet reports.
So, back to the essence of the original controversial message, seems the club management doesn't have a problem with people fishing there. If the board decides to take a different stance on the decision, due to anglers leaving garbage there, then that can be expected. We can play a part by helping them keep the place clean and being respectful of the property. Respect for the property is for sure a definate must, and if any garbage is lying around, then that's a shame for sure, but surely there are better ways to address this issue.
So finally, just a couple more points to address....
Yes I know CrappieKeith has a business of selling jigs, however from the posts I've seen he has not done any blatent advertising, and has contributed many great reports with the focus being on the reports. In my oppinion he has respected our code of conduct and I appreciate that.
Tip-Up, I understand you participate regularily on other boards, and that's great, but don't tell me controversy like this doesn't happen on other sites as well. Have you looked at the relative stats and participating users from these other sites? Are they comparable, or does one site have alot more traffic and community participation than the other? You should consider this. The more traffic and community users, the more different types of personalities, and I would bet that many of the users on other sites are also users here on this site. Just a huntch though.
I'm going to try something new with this post, as you will see from where it is placed. I think there are some important messages here that we can all learn something from. I don't want to lose it, and I don't want to bury it, so I've placed it here as an area we can all refer back to when dealing with other similar issues in the future......and trust me....there will be others.
It is true, I am the only moderator of this site and the only one with access to stop threads like this one. Unfortunately I cannot possibly read every single post that is made here, and also continue to develop and research new things for the site, otherwise I would have stopped this a long time ago, and it would not have gotten this far. My apologies. With a title like "another pan fish report" who'd of thought it could be turned into this. I rely on the community to send me a note when something like this comes up and starts to get out of hand, like I just received. Other sites may have anywhere from 5 to 10 moderators, that perhaps helps out a lot to avoid this, but at this time, it's only me.
To this end I request your help. I will be adding a small icon at the header of the forums for quick and easy access for anyone to send me a PM when threads like this one begin to go downhill. This will help a lot I'm sure, and will basically give you all the power of self moderation.
Now, onto the essense of where this one has taken us. I don't believe Waterfowler is a bad guy, just very passionate about things that disturb him, just like many of us are passionate about other things. I don't however believe he handled his passion in the most effective manner, which snowballed into more controversy and upset members. I take part responsibility for this, as I was not there to stop it before it got out of hand. I do however look to the participating members to set the tone of where controversy goes. Let's not kid ourselves, there will always be controversy about something. Again, it's how you handle it, that sets the tone. Part of the responsibility is yours.
Private property is private property for sure, and should not be tresspassed on without expressed permission from the owner of that property. People "sneaking" onto property to get to a place is not acceptable, however let's all be honest guys, there will be times where un-intentional tresspassing is going to happen, or "presumed" permission from seeing others at the spot will occur.
How do we handle things like that? Certainly not the way it was handled here. Obviously the rules on ettiquete and code of conduct need to be re-read by a few, unless of course you all want a crap site and basically destroy the community of contributors we have.
I don't normally mention people specifically, however I feel it necessary to address the root cause problems of this thread.
Waterfowler, this whole controvery started with your aggressive post indicating your dis-satisfaction with the fact that the report was from a spot that was accessed via Private Property, so my focus is on this. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
If this is your personal private property, then there are far better ways to communicate that you don't want anyone on it. If it's not, which I'm sure is the casse, and you have been disgusted with the litter around the spot, then the only business you should have here is to notify the anglers and the readers that this is Private Property, and they need to get permission to be on it, and clean up after themselves. That seems to be the message, and a good message, which should have been communicated in a much better way. Suggestions for tackling litter in these areas is more than welcome.
For those in favour of not identifying specific spots, they are for sure valid now. We've seen a change over the years which is trending towards encouraging people to "find their spots", rather than be told where to go. A few years ago, the members of this were praised for providing this information freely, and many former posters, who have participated in this discussion and several others, benefited from this information in their earlier days. Now...not so much, but don't blame Fish-Hawk.Net. There will always be people who like to communicate spots, that's not going to change. Education and informing people on the norm today is the approach that needs to be taken. Keep your spots to yourself if you'd like, report on your catches, but don't blame Fish-Hawk.Net when someone else finds the same spot you've found, no matter how they found it. Calling people freeloaders and yahoos is not tolerated here. Referring to Joco as Joke-O, is blatent disrepect for a member, and is no way condoned by this site. They metion of having to be a "card carrying poster" to have your oppinions heard is way off the mark. You just need to respect the people who you are attempting to communicate with if you expect them to listen to you. Your fist mention of your dissatisfaction was not respectful, with obvious anger and apparent attach against people and the Internet in general. This was the root of the problem. So while your underlying message is a good one, the delivery of the message should have been handled a lot better than it was.
CrappieKeith, GetTheNet, Molecat, and others, thanks for trying to get the thread back on track....numerous times, and supporting the essence of what this community is all about. It truly is meant for learning, sharing, and meeting new "friends". We seem to fight amongst ourselves a lot. I don't understand it really. We're all fishermen striving to catch fish and learning how to fish better. Why can't we use that to our advantage and act like a community, instead of a linch mob.
For those who supported Waterfowler's message, I most likely think you saw the intent of that message and disregarded the delivery of it, however I think you also used it to indirectly push your own messages and attempt to take this site down a notch or two. Whether you agree with me or not, it definately seems to be the trend in other posts you've made on controversial topics. I suppose I need to expect this type of thing happening however.
For those who are considering leaving and not posting reports, I ask you to re-consider. Fish-Hawk.Net has been successful due to the participation of the community. I have always promoted that message, and will continue to do so, even during the controversial times. If the community doesn't participate, then there is no Fish-Hawk.Net. I know this, you know this, our supporters know this, it's no secret. It's the essence of what has been build here. I do however encourage some tact and respect regarding the posting of specific locations publically. This seems to be the root cause of why people have a problem with Internet reports.
So, back to the essence of the original controversial message, seems the club management doesn't have a problem with people fishing there. If the board decides to take a different stance on the decision, due to anglers leaving garbage there, then that can be expected. We can play a part by helping them keep the place clean and being respectful of the property. Respect for the property is for sure a definate must, and if any garbage is lying around, then that's a shame for sure, but surely there are better ways to address this issue.
So finally, just a couple more points to address....
Yes I know CrappieKeith has a business of selling jigs, however from the posts I've seen he has not done any blatent advertising, and has contributed many great reports with the focus being on the reports. In my oppinion he has respected our code of conduct and I appreciate that.
Tip-Up, I understand you participate regularily on other boards, and that's great, but don't tell me controversy like this doesn't happen on other sites as well. Have you looked at the relative stats and participating users from these other sites? Are they comparable, or does one site have alot more traffic and community participation than the other? You should consider this. The more traffic and community users, the more different types of personalities, and I would bet that many of the users on other sites are also users here on this site. Just a huntch though.
I'm going to try something new with this post, as you will see from where it is placed. I think there are some important messages here that we can all learn something from. I don't want to lose it, and I don't want to bury it, so I've placed it here as an area we can all refer back to when dealing with other similar issues in the future......and trust me....there will be others.
Rob Atkinson
Site Admin (retired)
Site Admin (retired)